And the reason it is considered a crime because it is a ‘crime’ against society. Personally I prefer it that way, as do I think most of society. I really do not need to see our men looking like women, nor do I want our future generations to get confused.

In the end though, majority rules ”

this post is most disturbing. first of all, you speak of logic when you yourself display NONE. but never mind that. how do you figure anyone’s choice of clothing to be a “CRIME AGAINST SOCIETY”? going by the next statement you made, i’d say it’s more a crime against your personal opinion and nothing more. and please, don’t ever use the children as your scapegoat. they are capable of understanding a lot of things, if responsible adults will just explain them. you are more “confused” than the generation of which you speak.

peace.

@loft965: I somewhat agree to your point about majority… I mean look at the pile of ….. mess in the U.S. “democracy” http://www.ontheissues.org/AskMe/spousal_abuse.htm (Congress criminal record)
More importantly, Allah tells us: “If thou obeyedst most of those on earth they would mislead thee far from Allah’s way. They follow naught but an opinion, and they do but guess” (6:116)

The problem occurs when people try to regulate themselves by themselves… that cannot work out. Because people are not infalliable and thus when they make rules and regulations, they cannot but be affected by their infalliability and thus serious loopholes will exist (perhaps they subconciously create these loopholes for themselves, just in case).

The solution? Regulation from The Creator of the People Himself (unless you don’t believe in a Creator, but that’s another subject). I mean, at the very least some set of standards/policies/regulations are required to address matters such as those you mentioned (gender roles, human nature, etc…) other wise it is going to be a mess and there wouldn’t be a point of life being a test.

Yes, I agree that Human kind is diverse, as that is one of the signs of Allah in His creation: “And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth , and the difference of your languages and colors . Lo! herein indeed are portents for men of knowledge ” (30:22) and
“O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full Knowledge and is well-acquainted (with all things)” (49:13)

So, people are diverse, but since we (Muslims) believe that this life is finite and temporary as it is not the final eternal abode, but rather a test and trial on the road to the hereafter, then there must be a set of common rules and guidelines to govern us that we are held accountable for, otherwise there wouldn’t be a fair judgement on Judgement day, would there?

You’ll probably be tempted to open the door to the question “Well, who decides what God wants us to do?” And the first step to understanding that is to recognize that far be it for God who sustained us with our bodily needs (air, water, etc…) to leave out our spiritual/guidance sustenance/needs which is more important (since our current bodies are finite, while our souls will live on). So, there is guidance from Him which starts with Messengers He sends (with signs as proof) to us to guide us. Once we agree on this, the rest is easy (history of the sciences of jurisprudence/Fiqh and the sciences of verdict deduction and associated sciences; yes they may differ on certain branch issues (within the same creedal groups), but that is expected; thus whichever one you follow you would satisfy the requirement of adherence as best as one can and is expected to).

I came across a post that summarizes the view on Democracy from the Sharia perspective (http://www.bramjnet.com/vb3/showthread.php?t=658530). But again, unless we agree on the basic creedal issues to begin with (there is a Creator, He sent messengers,etc…), there’s no point of discussing the rest (which is why the first and common instruction by Messengers was always: There is no deity but Allah لا إله إلا الله and only after establishing that with sound/logical proofs do the rest of the regulations follow and make sense)

Thanks.

@loft965: I somewhat agree to your point about majority… I mean look at the pile of ….. mess in the U.S. “democracy” http://www.ontheissues.org/AskMe/spousal_abuse.htm (Congress criminal record)
More importantly, Allah tells us: “If thou obeyedst most of those on earth they would mislead thee far from Allah’s way. They follow naught but an opinion, and they do but guess” (6:116)

The problem occurs when people try to regulate themselves by themselves… that cannot work out. Because people are not infalliable and thus when they make rules and regulations, they cannot but be affected by their infalliability and thus serious loopholes will exist (perhaps they subconciously create these loopholes for themselves, just in case).

The solution? Regulation from The Creator of the People Himself (unless you don’t believe in a Creator, but that’s another subject). I mean, at the very least some set of standards/policies/regulations are required to address matters such as those you mentioned (gender roles, human nature, etc…) other wise it is going to be a mess and there wouldn’t be a point of life being a test.

Yes, I agree that Human kind is diverse, as that is one of the signs of Allah in His creation: “And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth , and the difference of your languages and colors . Lo! herein indeed are portents for men of knowledge ” (30:22) and
“O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full Knowledge and is well-acquainted (with all things)” (49:13)

So, people are diverse, but since we (Muslims) believe that this life is finite and temporary as it is not the final eternal abode, but rather a test and trial on the road to the hereafter, then there must be a set of common rules and guidelines to govern us that we are held accountable for, otherwise there wouldn’t be a fair judgement on Judgement day, would there?

You’ll probably be tempted to open the door to the question “Well, who decides what God wants us to do?” And the first step to understanding that is to recognize that far be it for God who sustained us with our bodily needs (air, water, etc…) to leave out our spiritual/guidance sustenance/needs which is more important (since our current bodies are finite, while our souls will live on). So, there is guidance from Him which starts with Messengers He sends (with signs as proof) to us to guide us. Once we agree on this, the rest is easy (history of the sciences of jurisprudence/Fiqh and the sciences of verdict deduction and associated sciences; yes they may differ on certain branch issues (within the same creedal groups), but that is expected; thus whichever one you follow you would satisfy the requirement of adherence as best as one can and is expected to).

I came across a post that summarizes the view on Democracy from the Sharia perspective (http://www.bramjnet.com/vb3/showthread.php?t=658530). But again, unless we agree on the basic creedal issues to begin with (there is a Creator, He sent messengers,etc…), there’s no point of discussing the rest (which is why the first and common instruction by Messengers was always: There is no deity but Allah لا إله إلا الله and only after establishing that with sound/logical proofs do the rest of the regulations follow and make sense)

Thanks.

AND NOTICE THIS NEXT TIME YOU’RE OUT IN A MALL IN KUWAIT, when a girl looks masculin “it’s OK”… When a guy, as they would put it, looks “feminin”, it’s a crime against the Kuwaiti civilization.

@loft965: I somewhat agree to your point about majority… I mean look at the pile of ….. mess in the U.S. “democracy” http://www.ontheissues.org/AskMe/spousal_abuse.htm (Congress criminal record)
More importantly, Allah tells us: “If thou obeyedst most of those on earth they would mislead thee far from Allah’s way. They follow naught but an opinion, and they do but guess” (6:116)

The problem occurs when people try to regulate themselves by themselves… that cannot work out. Because people are not infalliable and thus when they make rules and regulations, they cannot but be affected by their infalliability and thus serious loopholes will exist (perhaps they subconciously create these loopholes for themselves, just in case).

I’d like to also say that shouldn’t what anyone looks like be their choice not yours? And why do you think you should decide what future generations see and not see?

If you do “not need” to see things, then it’s simple… don’t look.

The majority rules is the most ludicrous thing I ever heard and people champion it to be some sort of privilidge of democracy. It’s not.

The founding father of one of the world’s greatest and earliest democracies, Thomas Jefferson said:

“All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression.”

In your argument then if a majority that exists here of one ethnic origin can rule that a minority of another does not have the right to education, votes or whatever.. then it is fine with you?

This also poses another problem, what is considered “feminine” and what is considered “masculine” to you? Should men be able to wear pink or have long hair? Should women drive motorcycles and wear a suit and tie?

What is it? and where does it stop? Humankind is diverse and this diversity, to sound cliche, should be embraced. Otherwise, there will never be civilization.

You want civilization? Be civil. Don’t hate. Don’t discriminate.

Policemen were ugly and horny, and the victimes refused to givent o sexual advances, thus the arrest taking place.
A policemen with a small penis for a head would naturally get severly offended and would not accept a wounded pride, thus the arrest.
Happens all the time.

Grow up.

And the reason it is considered a crime because it is a ‘crime’ against society. Personally I prefer it that way, as do I think most of society. I really do not need to see our men looking like women, nor do I want our future generations to get confused.

In the end though, majority rules

allah ma yertha 3al hal swealef